Bob Dylan's other stuff
For IE 4 users you will have scroll bars here Netscape users will need
to use the "up" and "down" buttons instead
Use the scroll bar to see the width of the picture
Bob Dylan's other stuff
1960s
1970s
1980s
1990s CONCERT RAP - INTERVIEWS - NOTES
Courtesy of Bill Parr
THE BRUCE HEIMAN INTERVIEW, TUSCON, DECEMBER 7,
1979 Heiman: OK, my name is Bruce Heiman. I'm with KMEX radio here in
Tuscon. We got a press release from the Tuscon chapter of the
American Atheists and they said in response to your recent embrace of
the born-again Christian movement they plan to leaflet your upcoming
concert. They say they recognize the need to inform those in the
audience that the new Dylan cause-celebre is a repressive and and
reactionary ideology and that members intend to draw attention to the
contradictions between the previous content of your art form and the
message which your songs now expound. Dylan: Uh-huh. I still don't
quite grasp what you're saying or who's saying it or ... Heiman: OK.
It's the American Atheists in Tuscon. Dylan: Is this a group? Heiman:
Yeah. Actually the American Atheists is a worldwide group headed by
Madelaine Mary O'Hare, and they have a chapter here in Tuscon, and I
think basically what they are talking about is your stand in the past
and the type of music you played and the message you tried to get
across and the music you're playing today and the different message
you're trying to get across. Dylan: Yeah, well, whatever the old
message was, The Bible says "All things become new, old things are
passed away". I guess this group doesn't believe that. What is it
exactly that they're protesting? Heiman: I think what they're against
... there's another statement, that they make. It says ... Dylan: Are
they against the doctrine of Jesus Christ, or that he died on the
cross or that man is born into sin? Just what exactly is it they're
protesting? Heiman: Well the Atheists are against any sort of
religion, be it Christianity .... Dylan: Well, Christ is no religion.
We're not talking about religion ... Jesus Christ is the Way, the
Truth and the Life. Heiman: There's another statement they made that
maybe you could shed some light on. They said they would like to
remind Dylan fans and audiences that one's right to say something
does not per se lend any validity to the statement. So in essence
what they're saying is that you have followers who are going to be at
the concert and are going to listen to the message of your music.
Dylan: Right. I follow God, so if my followers are following me,
indirectly they're gonna be following God too, because I don't sing
any song which hasn't been given to me by the Lord to sing. Heiman:
OK. They believe that all religion is repressive. Dylan: Well,
religion is repressive to a certain degree. Religion is another form
of bondage which man invents to to get himself to God. But that's why
Christ came. Christ didn't preach religion. He preached the Truth,
the Way and the Life. He said He'd come to give life and life more
abundantly. He talked about life, not necessarily religion ...
Heiman: They say that your song now expound passive acceptance of
one's fate. Do you agree with that? I'm not exactly sure what they
mean by that. Dylan: I'm not exactly sure what they mean by that
either. But I don't feel that that's true. But I'm not sure what that
means - "passive acceptance to man's fate" What is man's fate?
Heiman: I don't know. These aren't my ideologies. They are just a
group of Atheists. Dylan: Well, this ideology isn't my ideology
either. My ideology now would be coming out of the Scripture. You
see, I didn't invent these things - these things have just been shown
to me. I'll stand on that faith - that they are true. I believe
they're true. I *know* they're true. Heiman: Do you feel that the
message of your music has changed over the years from music which
talked about war to music that talks about Christianity? Dylan: No.
There's gonna be war. There's always war and rumors of war. And The
Bible talks about a war coming up which will be a war to end all wars
... ... The spirit of the atheist will not prevail, I can tell you
that much, It's a deceiving spirit. Heiman: Why do you maintain that
it will not prevail? Dylan: Is it anti-God? Is an atheist anti-God?
Heiman: Yes, I'm trying to think ... I interviewed Madelaine Mary
O'Hare a couple of weeks ago and she said it's anti-religion,
anti-God. I think that she was saying that anybody who believes in a
Supreme Being is - to use her word - stupid. So they are against
anything to do with religion. Dylan: Uh-huh. Heiman: Sometimes it's
hard for me to grasp what they're saying. Dylan: Well, a religion
which says you have to do certain things to get to God - they're
probably talking about that kind of religion, which is a religion
which is by works: you can enter into Kingdom by what you do, what
you wear, what you say, how many times a day you pray, how many good
deeds you may do. If that's what they mean by religion, that type of
religion will not get you into the Kingdom, that's true. However
there is a Master Creator, a Supreme Being in the Universe. Heiman:
Alright. In another one of their statements they say that: "For years
Dylan cried out against the Masters Of War and the power elite. The
new Dylan now proclaims that we must serve a new master, a master
whose nebulous origins were ignorance, foolishness, stupidity and
blind faith. The Dylan who inspired us to look beyond banal textbooks
and accepted ideologies now implores us to turn inwards to the pages
of The Holy Bible, a book filled with contradictions, inaccuracies,
outrages and absurdities". Now this is what they're saying. Dylan:
Well, The Bible says: "The Fool has said in his heart, There's no God
... " Heiman: OK. They're saying the movement is a fraud and evasive
... Dylan: Well, I don't know what movement. What movement are they
talking about. The American Atheists? Heiman: No, the Jesus Movement.
Dylan: Well, it isn't a fraud. There's nothing fraudulent about it.
It's all true. It's always been true. It is true and will be true.
Heiman: They're calling upon your admirers, the people who support
you, who will attend your concert, to go on and appreciate your art
form but to avoid the psychological and social pitfalls - this is
their words - or being victimized by your new-found religious
fantasy. Dylan: Well, they can't do that. You can't separate the
words from the music. I know people try to do that. But they can't do
that. It's like separating the foot from the knee. Heiman: You're
saying it's all one. Dylan: It is all one. Heiman: OK, Bob, I
appreciate your time, I really do.
San Diego November 17, 1978
-- Speech at a Concert A quote by Bob Dylan from November 1978,
probably November 17, in San Diego (anyone with confirmation re
whether this is the exact date please supply): I came here just about
a year ago, I think. After--just about towards the end of the
show--someone out in the crowd, they knew I wasn't feeling too well.
I think they could see that. And they threw a silver cross on the
stage. Now usually I don't pick things up in front of the stage. Once
in a while I do. Sometimes I don't. But I looked down at that cross.
I said, I gotta pick that up. So I picked up the cross and I put it
in my pocket. A little silver cross, I'd say maybe so high. And I
brought it backstage with me and I brought it to the next town, which
was in Arizona -- I think it was Phoenix. Anyway, I got back there. I
was feeling even worse than I'd felt when I was in San Diego. I said,
well I need something tonight. I didn't know what it was. It was used
to all kinds of things. I said, I need something tonight that I
didn't have before. And I looked in my pocket and I had this cross.
So if that person is here tonight, I just wanna thank you for that
cross.
Tucson
Interview - 1979 Christ is no religion . . . [He] is the way, the
truth and the life. . . religion is another form of bondage that man
invents to get himself to God. Well, a religion that says you have to
do certain things to get to God -- they're probably talking about
that type of religion, which is a religion which is by works: you can
enter into the kingdom by what you do, what you wear, what you say,
how many times a day you may pray, how many good deeds you may do. If
that's what they mean by religion, that type of religion will not get
you into the Kingdom, that's true. However, there is a Master
Creator, a Supreme Being in the Universe. People say, "Bob don't do
that stuff." It may be costing me a lot of fans. Maybe I'll have to
start singing on street corners. Still I'll give all praise and glory
to God.
Tempe Gammage
Interview - 1979 There are only two kinds of people. There's saved
people and there's lost people. Jesus is Lord and every race shall
bow to him! You may have your college education to hang on to now,
but you're gonna need something very solid to hang on to when these
[end] days come.
San
Francisco Interview - 1979 All these sad stories that are floating
around. We're not worried about any of that - we don't care about the
atom bomb, any of that, 'cause we know this world is going to be
destroyed and Christ will set up His kingdom in Jerusalem for a
thousand years, where the lion will lie down with the lamb.
July 26, 1979 Rolling
Stone Article Questioned about his wealth and property, Dylan
responded "You mean my treasure on earth?" And when asked if he was
known by any other name, he replied, "Not here. Not on this earth."
Albuquerque December
5, 1979 Concert Rap You know we're living in the end times. I don't
think there's anybody here who doesn't feel that in their heart. The
scriptures say, "in the last days, perilous times shall be at hand.
Men shall become lovers of their own selves. Blasphemous, heavy and
high-minded. Now I don't know who you're gonna vote for, but none of
those people is gonna straighten out what's happening in the world
today. But what's happening in it right now? Take a look at the
Middle East. They're heading for a war. There's gonna be a war over
there. I'd say maybe five years, maybe ten years, could be fifteen
years. I don't know, but remember I told you right here. I told you
"The Times They Are a'Changing" and they did. I said the answer was
"Blowin' in the Wind" and it was. I'm telling you now Jesus is coming
back, and He is! And there is no other way of salvation. I know
around here you got a lot of people putting mess on you in all kinds
a ways, you don't even know which way to believe. There's only one
way to believe, there's only one way -- the Truth and the Life. It
took a long time to figure that out before it did come to me, and I
hope it doesn't take you that long. But Jesus is coming back to set
up his Kingdom in Jerusalem for a thousand years. I don't know if
that's news toyou, but I know you don't read it in the newspapers,
but it's the Truth alright! So don't be worried now, don't you be
bothered by the events to come, because if you're Saved, you're
Saved. And if you're lost, you're lost. It's like when somebody says
. . . "I like the music but the message I can't get." That's like
saying, "I like the eye but the nose I just can't place. The ear's OK
but the neck just doesn't work." And some of you people you gotta be
responsible for what you say. Anyway, here's a song about "Go and
deliver it from the devil, who is god of this world, prince of the
power of the sin." That's the devil and he's infiltrated into
e-v-e-r-y thing. Medicine, science, you name it, he's there.
San Francisco November 11, 1979
Concert Rap I'd like to say we're presenting the show tonight under
the authority of Jesus Christ.
San Francisco November 15,
1979 Concert Rap You know we read in the newspapers every day how bad
the world is getting. The situation in Iran, the students rebelling,
you know, even over here they're rebelling. They don't let the
Iranians sneak into the whore houses. But that don't matter much
because we know this world will be destroyed. God will set up His
kingdom for a thousand years. So there's a Slow Train Comin', but
it's bound to pick up speed.
San Francisco
November 19, 1979 Concert Rap I don't know what kind of God you
believe in, but I believe in the God that can raise the dead. So look
around. So many people are conditioned to bad news they don't know
good news when they see it. So we're watching one thing: God don't
make promises He don't keep. "Let he who thinketh stand and take heed
lest he fall." You wanna know something, we're not worried at all
that even though it is the last of the end times; because we see all
these hostages being taken here and drugs being outlawed there. All
these sad stories that are floating around. We're not worried about
any of that -- we don't care about the atom bomb, any of that, 'cause
we know this world is going to be destroyed and Christ will set up
His Kingdom in Jerusalem for a thousand years, where the lion will
lie down with the lamb. Y'know the lion will eat straw that day.
Also, if a man doesn't live to a hundred years old, he will be called
accursed. That's interesting, isn't it? And we don't mind we know
that's coming, and if any man have not the spirit of Christ in hi8m,
he is a slave to bondage, so you need something just a little bit
tough to hang on to. This song's called "Hanging On To A Solid Rock
Made Before The Foundation Of The World." And if you don't have that
to hang on to, you better look into it.
San
Francisco November 21, 1979 Concert Rap You know God uses ordinary
people. He uses ordinary people all the time. All those guys in the
Old Testament -- Joshua, Moses, Abraham, Gideon -- they were all
ordinary people. They weren't any super-heroes at all. In fact, Moses
did not want to go back to Egypt and get the people out. He did not
want to do that because he knew he was an ordinary person. Anyway,
God told him to go back and tell the Pharaoh to let those people go.
Moses said to God, "The Pharaoh don't wanna let those people go." God
said, "Don't you worry Moses, I'll put those words right in your
mouth." Anyway, he went back and told the Pharaoh what God had told
him, and he said, "No way, Moses, I can't let those people go --
they're building my pyramids." Anyway, Moses says to the Pharaoh,
"Well, God says that your rivers are gonna dry up if you don't let
those people go." Well, the Pharaoh didn't pay any attention to that,
and his rivers dried up. Then Moses said, "Well, frogs are gonna
crawl across your streets." It still didn't make any difference to
the Pharaoh at that time. Frogs crawled everywhere. There was no
place they could look where they didn't see frogs. Hail started
falling big as basketballs. People were dropping like flies. Many
many plagues came down, but finally God said to Moses, "Moses, you go
and tell the Pharaoh that very first born son is gonna die if he
don't let those people go." And Moses said, "Alright, I'll go tell
him." But Moses probably figured out, "If all the first born sons are
gonna die, what about the Hebrew children? Are they gonna die too?"
And God said, "No Moses, you just put the blood sign on the door." So
when the Angel of the Lord passed over, he saw the sign of blood on
the door of every house. And he didn't touch those houses. Now you
need the blood on you, because of what's gonna be happening in the
world comin' up. You need the blood on you. Anyway, I tell you this
story to tell you that God does use ordinary people.
Syracuse May, 1980 -- Speech at a
Concert I know a lot of you never heard of Jesus before. I know I
hadn't up till a couple of years ago. Jesus tapped me on the
shoulder, said: Bob why are you resisting me? I said, I'm not
resisting you! He said, You gonna follow me? I said, Well, I never
thought about this before! He said, WHen you're not following me
you're resisting me. John the Baptist baptised with water; Jesus
baptises with fire. Fire and the Holy Spirit. Oh, so yes - there's
been a change in me. I wonder what it is?
Toronto April 20, 1980 Concert
Rap Actually I wanna tell you a story. We were playin' about fou
months ago someplace that was a college or a campus. I forget exactly
where. Arizona I think it was. Anyway, I read the Bible a lot; it
just happens I do. It says things in the Bible that I didn't really
learn until recently, and I really mentioned these because there are
higher learning people there, preaching their philosophy. So people
can study all the different philosophies, of Plato and, uh, who else?
Well I definitely recall reading Nietche and those people like that.
Anyways, in the Bible it tells a specific thing in the Book of
Revelations that just apply to these times, and it says that certain
wars that soon - I can't say exactly when but soon anyway - so that
at that time it mentions a country to the furthermost north, and has
as its symbol the bear. And it's also spelt R-O-S-H in the Bible.
This was written quite a few years ago. So it can't but be applied to
one country that I know. But do you know another it can be applied
to? Maybe you do. I don't know. Then there's another country called .
. . can't remember what the name of it is, but it's in the eastern
part of the world, and it's got an army of two hundred million foot
soldiers. Now there's only one country that that can actually be. So
anyway, I was telling this story to these people. I shouldn't have
been telling it to them. I just got carried away. I mentioned it to
them and then I watched. And Russia was going to come down and attack
in the Middle East. It says this in the Bible. And I had been reading
all kinds of books my whole life: magazines, books, whatever I could
lay my hands on anyway, and I never found any truth in any of it, if
you wanna know the truth. But I said, This country is gonna come down
and attack. And all these people - there must've been 50,000 . . .
maybe it wasn't 50,000, 5000 maybe . . . I don't know maybe three -
3,000 - they all booed. Everybody just booed; and it was the whole
auditorium of people, I said, Russia's gonna come down and attack the
Middle East. And it was Oooh! They couldn't hear that. They didn't
believe it. And a month later Russia moved her troops into, I think,
Afghanistan. And the whole situation changed, you know. I'm not
saying this to tell you they were wrong and I was right, or anything
like that. These things that it mentions in the Bible. I'm gonna pay
mighty close attention to . . . been a lot of previews of what
Anti-Christ could be like. You had a preview: you got Adolf Hitler.
Well, a preview? Anyway, the Anti-Christ is gonna be a little
different from that. But then he's gonna bring panic to the world.
But he will eventually be defeated too. But you're still gonna have
to be aware of these things. You need something solid to hang on to.
It was manifested in the flesh! Testified in the Spirit! Received by
angels! Preached out in the world! Anybody know what time it is?
Anybody know what it is? I saw the newspaper last night. The Who were
playing Vancouver. Peter Townsend apologised to all his fans, telling
"Well never leave you along again." You just think about that for a
minute. There is one who will never leave you. I just don't think
that it's Peter.
Dylan Interview ( 1980)
Many believe Jesus comes into a person's life only when they are down
and out or miserable or just old and withering away. That's not the
way it was for me. I was doing fine. I had come a long way in that
year on the road. I was relatively content, but a close friend of
mine mentioned a couple things to me, and one of them was Jesus. The
whole idea of Jesus was foreign to me . . . I trusted this person and
called back and said I was willing to listen about Jesus.
Montreal April 22, 1980 Concert Raps
Thank you. I'm leaning on that solid rock, and you need that solid
rock. There's a form of medium called Zen. They got a way of twisting
things all around, make what's good seem bad and what's bad seem
good. I was talking to a girl the other day who just lives from
orgasm to orgasm. I know that's a strange thing, but that's what
she's said to do because of these so-called modern times. But she's
not satisfied. The keys of the world were given to someone called
Lucifer. That old song about Lucifer -- he's still around, the prince
of the power of the air, the serpent; he's a spiritual being. You
can't see him, but he can control you. He'll want to destroy you.
San Francisco November 18,
1979 Concert Rap Satan's called the god of this world and as you look
you see he really is god of this world. But for those of you who
don't know . . . I'm curious to know how many of you don't know and
how many of you know that Satan himself has been defeated at the
cross. Does anybody know that [Applause] Alright. At least we're not
alone.
San Francisco November
20, 1979 Concert Rap WHen Jesus was in the garden when they came to
get Him, Peter, who was one of His men, he was always saying things
-- when he didn't know what to say he would always say it. Anyway,
Peter took out this sword and cut this man's ear off when they came
in to get Jesus, and Jesus said, "Hold it, Peter." He said, "Don't
you think that if I prayed to my Father He will give me twelve
legions of angels to take care ofthis matter? This cup that is coming
to Me, I must drink it." Anyway, this will give you an idea of Peter.
Peter is the man who Jesus said, "Upon this rock I will found My
Church." Anyway, he was always saying things like that but when Jesus
did go to the cross He did defeat the devil. We know this. We know
this is true and believe it, and we stand on that faith.
San Francisco November 25, 1979 Concert Rap
Turn the light on them down there (in response to heckling). You know
when John the Baptist saw Jesus coming down the road, he said,
"Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world!" Did
you kno that? That's right, that's what he said . . . In San
Francisco we opened there about a month ago, about three or four
people walked out because they didn't get the message, you know. But
we're still here. Don't you walk out before you hear the message
through. -- Anyway, "The Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the
world" -- I wonder how many of you people understand that. I'm
curious to know how many of you understand. (Little response) It's
like the Shah of Iran. He's been out of hospital now. Who knows what
he's doin'? Been walking around, looking out of the window. Meantime,
50 or 60 American hostages are being held somewhere out in the
desert. This man plundered the country, murdered a lot of poeple,
escaped. Now here's wht Jesus would havedone. Jesus would have gone
back. See, that's what Jesus did. He would've gone back and took all
the hostages back. Now of course we don't expect the Shah of Iran to
do anything like that. Of course he's just human. That's right -- he
is human. Any way, we're gonna start off this song here. It's called
Slow Train Coming." It's been coming a long time -- yeah it is. The
world as we know it now is being destroyed. Sorry, but it's the
truth. In a short time -- I don't know, in three years, maybe five
years, could be ten years, I don't know -- there's gonna be a war.
It's gonna be called the War of Armageddon. It's gonnna be in the
Middle East. Russia's gonna come down first. Anyway, we're not
worried about that. We know there's gonna be a new kingdomset up in
Jerusalem for a thousand years. That's where Christ will set up His
Kingdom, as sure as you're standing there. It's gonna happen.
San Francisco November 26, 1979 Concert Rap
Hmm. Pretty rude bunch tonight. You all know how to be real rude! You
know about the spirit of the Anti-Christ? Does anyone here know about
that? Ah, the spirit of the Anti-Christ is loose right now. Let me
give you an example I got . . . somebody stopped by my house and gave
me this tape-cassette. There's many of these false deceivers running
around these days. There is only one gospel. The Bible says, "Let
anyone who preach anything other than that gospel, let him be
accursed." Anyway, a young fella stopped by my house one day and
wanted to so-called "turn me on to " a -- I'm not gonna mention his
name -- he's a certain guru. I don't wanna mention his name right
now, but he has a place out there in L.A. And he stopped by and gave
me this tape cassette to show me . . . (Audience: "Rock 'n' Roll!!")
. . . If you want rock 'n' roll, you go down and rock 'n' roll. You
can go and see Kiss and you can rock 'n' roll all the way down to the
pit! Anyway, let me give you an example: ou wanna hear about this
guru? (Positive response from audience) So. Anyway, this guru, he
made a film of himself. He had one of these big conventions. He has
himself a convention about once a month. Like, they go off to a big
city. So, I took a look at this tape and sure enough he was having
himself a big convention -- he must have had about 5,000 people
there, or 10,000 people there. 10,000 people. And what he was doing
on stage was, he was sitting there with a load of flowers and things
. . . He sure did look pretty though, sitting up there, kind of like
on a throne, y'know? Listening to him talk on that tape, he said what
life's about is life's to have fun, and I'm gonna show you how to
have fun! And he had a big fire extinguisher and he would spray it
out on the people and they all laughed and had a good time. They took
their clothes off. They were overjoyed to be sprayed by this man. And
a little while after that, he's talking about his philosophy. And he
said that he was God -- he did say that. He said that God's inside
him and he is God. And they could think of him as God. I want to tell
you this because they say there's many of these people walking
around. They may not come out and say they're God, but they're just
waiting for the opportunity. There is only one God. Let me hear you
say who that is. Their God makes promises that he doesn't keep.
There's only two kinds of people like the preacher says -- only two
kinds of people. Color don't separate them, neither does their
clothes. . . (Rock 'n' Roll!) You still want rock 'n' roll? I'll tell
you what the two kinds of people are. Don't matter how much money you
got, there's only two kinds of people: there's saved people and
there's lost people. Yeah. Remember that I told you that. You may
never see me again. You may not see me but sometime down the line you
remember you heard it here, that Jesus is Lord. Every knee shall bow!
How many people here are aware that we're living in the end of times
right now? How many people are aware of that? Anybody wanna know?
Anybody interested to know that we're living in the end times? How
many people do know that? Well, we are. We're living in the end
times. That's right. I told you that "The Times They Are A Changin"
20 years ago, and I don't believe I've ever lied to you. I don't
think I told you anything that was a lie. Never told you to vote for
nobody; never told you to follow nobody. Well, I'll tell you a story
about that now. Jesus saw this woman -- they all wanted to stone her
because she was an adulteress. So they said to Jesus -- they all
wanted to trick Him, you know -- so they said, "Master, what say you?
Shall we stone this woman because she has been an adulteress?" And He
says, "Well, let him who is without sin cast the first stone." They
just dropped their stones and walked away. And He said to the woman,
"Woman, you're free now. Go and sin no more." And the woman left.
Well, let me tell you now: the devil owns this world: he's called the
god of this world. Now we're living in America. I like America, just
as everybody else does . . . I love America, I gotta say that. . .
But America will be judged . . . You know God comes against the
country in three ways. First way He comes against them, he comes
against their economy. Did you know that? He messes with their
economy the first time -- you can check it out to way back to
Babylon, Persia and Egypt. Many of you are college students aren't
you? You ask your teachers about this. You see I know they're gonna
verify what I say. Every time God comes against a nation, first of
all he comes against their economy. If that doesn't work, He comes
against their ecology . . . He did it with Egypt. He did it with
Persia. He did it with Babylon. He did it with the whole middle East.
It's desert now. It used to be flourishing gardens. Alright. If that
doesn't work He just brings up another nation against them. So one of
these three things has got to work. Now Jesus Christ is that solid
rock. He's supposed to come two times. He came once already -- He's
coming back again. You gotta be prepared for this. No matter what you
read in the newspapers, that's all deceit. The real truth is that
He's coming back already. You just watch your newspapers, you're
gonna see -- maybe two years, maybe three years, five years from now
you just wait and see. Russia will come down and attack in the Middle
East. China's got an Army of two million people -- They're gonna come
down in the Middle East. There's gonna be a war called the Battle of
Armageddon which is like something you never even dreamed about. And
Christ will set up His Kingdom and He'll rule it from Jerusalem. I
know, far out as that may seem this is what the Bible says . . .
("Everybody must get stoned!") . . . I'll tell you about getting
stoned -- what do you want to know about getting stoned? What you're
gonna need is something strong to hang on to. You got drugs to hold
on to now. You might have a job to hold on to now. But you're gonna
need something very solid to hang on to when these days come. That's
right. We're gonna play a song called "Hangin' On To A Solid Rock
Made Before The Foundation Of The World." Remember now, you talk to
your teacher about what I said. I'm sure you're paying a lot of money
for your education, so you'd better get one. Remember now, don't be
deceived by what's inside you. Remember Jesus was deceived by one of
His own men, just like Jesse James was deceived by someone he invited
into his own house. Anyway, we're gonna play this one and beat on
down the road. Remember what I said if you ever hear some other time
that there is a truth, a life and a way. You may not get in now -- it
may not be next week or so, not the next year or so -- but you
remember the next time it happens. ------------------------- Seattle
January, 1980 Concert Rap I was stopped by somebody last night who
travels around, and she said she was riding in a cab once in a big
city and the cab driver turned round in the cab and said, Did you
hear Bob Dylan's a Christian now? And this woman said, Yeah, I think
I have heard that. How does that make you feel? Are you a Christian?
And the driver said, No, I'm not, but I've been following Bob for a
long time. And the lady said, Well, what do you thank of his new
things? He said, I think they're real good, but I tell you if I could
meet that person that brought Bob Dylan to the Lord, I think I might
become a Christian too. This here is a song (Precious Angel) - this
is all about that certain person.
May 16, 1980 Speech - Pat Crosby
Interview THE PAT CROSBY INTERVIEW MAY 16, 1980
Crosby: How and why did Bob
Dylan recently stop singing the older songs and start singing gospel
and about the Lord? He said he would talk to us about it .... Dylan:
I can understand why they feel rebellious about it because up until
the time the Lord came into my life, I knew nothing about religion; I
was just rebellious and didn't think much about it either way. I
never did care much for preachers who just ask for donations all the
time and talk about the world to come. I was always growing up with
"it's right here and now" and until Jesus became real to me that way,
I couldn't understand it. Crosby: So you can understand people's
reaction to you when you come on stage and start singing about Jesus
and they want the old stuff? Dylan: Oh, yeas, that's right, they want
the old stuff. But the old stuff's not going to save them and I'm not
going to save them. Neither is anybody else they follow. They can
boogie all night, but it's not gonna work. Crosby: Do you still hold
the same enthusiasm for the older material or is it gone? Dylan: Oh,
yeah, I love that stuff. I look at it now and it amazes me that it
was me that even wrote it or performed it.
Interview conducted at the Hilton Hotel in Pittsburgh May 15, 1980
and broadcast the same day by KDKA TV. Reprinted in Clinton Heylin:
Saved! - part 3, The Telegraph #30.
Karen Hughes Interview -
5/21/1980 KAREN HUGHES INTERVIEW, DAYTON, OHIO, MAY 21, 1980
"It would have been easier", he sighed "If I had
become, or a Buddhist, or a Scientologist or if I had gone to Sing
Sing" I asked him if many of his friends had forsaken him. "No REAL
friends?" Dylan responded tellingly, blowing cigarette smoke away
from my face, in the tiny hotel room in Dayton, Ohio, where we talked
as his tour was cutting across America's Bible belt and winding it's
way back to Los Angeles, Dylan's home of nine years. "At every point
in my life I've had to make decisions for what I believed in.
Sometimes I've ended up hurting people that I've loved. Other times
I've ended up loving people that I never thought I would." "You ask
me about myself" Dylan said at the end of an intensive session of
questioning, "but I'm becoming less and less defined as Christ
becomes more and more defined". "Christianity", he explained, "is not
Christ and Christ is not Christianity. Christianity is making Christ
the Lord of your life. You're talking about your life now, you're not
talking about just part of it, you're not talking about a certain
hour every day. You're talking about making Christ the Lord and the
Master of your life, the KIng of your life. And you're also talking
about Christ, the resurrected Christ, you're not talking about some
dead man who had a bunch of good ideas and was nailed to a tree. Who
died with those ideas. You're talking about a resurrected Christ who
is Lord of your life. We're talking about that type of Christianity".
"It's HIM through YOU. 'He's alive', Paul said, 'I've been crucified
with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I but Christ who liveth in
me'. See Christ is not some kind of figure down the road. We serve
the living God, not dead monuments, dead ideas, dead philosophies. If
he had been a dead God, you'd be carrying around a corpse inside
you". Dylan speaks of having constant dialogue with Christ, of
surrendering his life to God's will much in the same way as Joan of
Arc or St Francis of Assisi would have done. It is, he says, the only
thing that matters. When you ask about his band, he replies "I think
Jim Keltner and Tim Drummond are the best rhythm section that God
ever invented". His view on American politics is, "God will stay with
America as long as America stays with God. A lot of people maybe even
the President, maybe a lot of senators, you hear them speak and
they'll speak of the attributes of God. But none of them are speaking
about being a disciple of Christ". "There's a different between
knowing who Christ is and being a disciple of Christ and recognizing
Christ as a personality and being of God. I'm more aware of that than
anything and it dictates my very being. So I wouldn't have much to
offer anybody who wants to know about politics or history or or art
or any of that. I've always been pretty extreme in all them areas
anyway". Whether on or off the road Dylan worships whenever he can at
the Assembly of God, a fundamentalist, pentecostal, evangelical l
denomination that believe in the literal Bible and speaking in
tongues. He came to Christ through a revelation, a personal
experience with Jesus. "Jesus put his hand on me. It was a physical
thing. I felt it. I felt it all over me. I felt my whole body
tremble. The glory of the Lord knocked me down and picked me up".
"Being born again is a hard thing. You ever seen a mother give birth
to a child? Well it's painful. We don't like to lose those old
attitudes and hang-ups". "Conversion takes time because you have to
learn to crawl before you can walk. You have to learn to drink milk
before you can eat meat. You're re-born, but like a baby. A baby
doesn't know anything about this world ant that's what it's like when
you're re-born. You're a stranger. You have to learn all over again.
God will show you what you need to know". "I guess He's always been
calling me", Dylan said gently. "Of course, how would I have ever
known that? That it was Jesus calling me. I always thought it was
some voice that would be more identifiable. But Christ is calling
everybody; we just turn him off. We just don't want to hear. We think
he's gonna make our lives miserable, you know what I mean. We think
he's gonna make us do things we don't want to do. Or keep us from
doing things we want to do". "But God's got his own purpose and time
for everything. He knew when I would respond to His call".
This was the first proper interview with Bob Dylan after his
conversion and it was printed in the New Zealand newspaper The
Dominion, August 2,1980.
San
Francisco Interview - 1980 Interviewer: Some critics have not been
too kind as a result of the past two albums because of the religious
content. Does that surprise you? For example they've said, some have
said, that you're proselytizing. Is Jesus Christ the answer for all
of us in your mind? Dylan: Yeah, I would say that. What we're talking
about is the nature of God and in order to go to God you have to go
through Jesus. Yeah, you have to understand that. You have to have an
experience with that. Interviewer: You're not preaching to us? Dylan:
No, I'm not. I could do a little bit of this and a little bit of that
but right now I'm just content to play these shows. This is a stage
show we're doing. It's not a salvation ceremony.
Dayton Interview - 1980 Jesus put
his hand on me. It was a physical thing. I felt it. I felt it all
over me. I felt my whole body tremble. The glory of the Lord Knocked
me down and picked me up. There was a presence in the room that
couldn't have been anybody but Jesus . . . I truly had a born again
experience, if you want to call it that.
Interview -- Hartford, 1980
It would have been easier if I'd become a junkie, or a Buddhist or a
Scientologist. Christianity is making Christ the Lord of your life.
You're talking about your life now, you're not talking about just
part of it, you're not talking about a certain hour every day. You're
talking about making Jesus Christ the Lord and Master of your life,
the King of your life. And you're also talking about Christ, the
resurrected Christ. You're not talking about some dead man who had a
bunch of good ideas and was nailed to a tree. Walking with Jesus is
no easy trip, but it's the only trip. I know the modern trend. It's
not fashionable to think about heaven and hell. I know that. But God
doesn't have to be in fashion. He's always fashionable. But it's hard
not to go to hell, you know. There's so many distractions, so many
influences. You start walking right and pretty soon there's somebody
out there gonna drag you down. As soon as you get rid of The Enemy
outside, The Enemy comes inside. He got all kinds of ways. The Bible
says, "resist the Devil and the Devil will flee.' You got to stand to
resist him. How we got to stand? Anybody know how to stand? How do we
stand? Anybody know how? (muted response from the audience) We gotta
stay here and play another night.
-------------------------------------- Minneapolis 1983 Interview
Dylan: My so-called Jewish roots are in Egypt. They went down there
with Joseph, and they came back out with Moses, you know, the guy
that killed the Egyptian, married an Ethiopian girl and brought the
law down from the mountain. The same Moses whose staff turned into a
serpent. The same person who killed three hundred Hebrews for getting
down, stripping off their clothes and dancing around a golden calf. .
. Roots, man - we're talking about Jewish roots, you want to know
more? Check up on Elijah the prophet. He could make it rain. Isaiah
the prophet, even Jeremiah - see if their brethren didn't want to
bust their brains for telling it right like it is, yeah - these are
my roots, I suppose. Interviewer: Are you looking for them? Dylan: Am
I looking for them? Well, I don't know. I ain't looking for them in
synagogues with six pointed Egyptian stars shining down from every
window, I can tell you that much.
New
York Interview - 1981 Beauty can be very deceiving and it's not
always of God. Beauty appeals to our eyes . . . The beauty of the
sunset . . . that's God'given. But I spent a lot of time dealing with
man-made beauty, so sometimes the beauty of God's world has evaded
me. "Slow Train" was a big album. "Saved" didn't have those kinda
numbers but to me it was just as big an album. I'm fortunate that I'm
in a position to release an album like "Saved" with a major record
company so that it will be available to the people who would like to
buy it.
Herman Interview of Dylan - July
2, 1981 THE DAVE HERMAN INTERVIEW, LONDON, JULY 2 1981
Herman: Last night in
Earl's Court, here in London, I guess there were about twenty people
in there and when I kind of saw them, I guess it was when you did
'It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)' and every last one of them in
the place was standing on their chair and it was a pretty special
kind of a feeling. I was reminded once again, that you really do have
a very .., that you play a very special part in the lives of an
extraordinary amount of people all over the world and I gathered that
this has always made you a bit uncomfortable, that people hold you in
a very special place? Dylan: I don't feel uneasy with the part of it,
that part of it, but the other part of it, you know the part where
you're expected to ... go to parties ... and ... be somebody all the
time, you know. That's what makes me feel uncomfortable. Herman: Or
the part that makes people presuming you have somehow a lot of
answers that they might not have to a lot of questions? Dylan: Well,
if you ... the answers to those questions, they've got to be in those
songs I've written. Someplace, if you know where to look, I think
you'll find the answers to those questions. It's right there in the
songs. Better than I could say it. Herman: Maybe that's why, over the
years, that you have given so very few interviews, because probably
people just come by and, once again, hope that you're gonna come up
with some answers that are in the songs. In the lyrics and in the
music. But you've given, I don't think, more than half a dozen major
interviews. You've never really talk a whole lot to the press or
radio people. Dylan: No, I haven't. Herman: The performers and
artists feel that there's some kind of adversaries there, when
reporters come in ... Dylan: Well, performers feel that .., they
don't feel they're adversaries, but they do feel that ... they feel a
lot of times that their points are not taken the right way or they
feel imposed upon to answer questions that have really little to do
with why they fill halls or sell records. Herman: I got some
questions for you that I hope aren't those and I hope that they're
also questions that the answers of which aren't really in your songs.
For instance it seems to me that ..., we are sitting in London, and
Mrs Thatcher is the prime minister here and back home it seems to be
a kind of a new political wave of conservatism sweeping across the
world and I wonder if that kind of concerns you at all, if you've
noticed the change in the political winds? Dylan: No. I don't know
much change between conservatism or liberalism. I can't see much
differencies between either of those things. Herman: But there are
-irism of relative freedom and there are -irism of repression and I
think that in the 1960s, where a lot of us came out of, people were
much freer to create, much freer to express their ideas at least in
the western world. Dylan: You think so? Herman: Well, I don't know, I
just see ... for instance there are groups of people that are
boycotting sponsors of television shows that they don't like ..,.
Dylan: But they don't like them for a specific reason, though. A lot
of these people that are boycotting those shows they got children,
they show things on those shows, they don't want their children to
see. Television now is at every home, it's not much you can do about
it. It's better than outlawing TV-sets. Herman: Can't they just not
have their children watch the TV, I mean ... Dylan: Think about forty
years ago, there weren't any TV-sets, so there was nothing to boycott
... Herman: OK, well another thing is, ah, in the United States the
abortion question is becoming one of the major political
controversies at home. Dylan: Well, that is just a diversion, though.
Whenever you think about abortion, pro, con, you know, I think you
should be thinking about those things, then they put you away with
the bigger things, which you're not thinking about. So you get
everybody thinking about abortion and they turn you back from it ...
not to say that abortion is not important! But you can make something
so ... you know cast a spell on something and make everybody look
that way and then you come at them from another direction ... Herman:
But that sounds like it's conspiratorial? Dylan: Yeah, it does,
doesn't it? Herman: Yeah, it does! I think it is, but I don't think
people sit in rooms and say well, let's divert them with the abortion
issue, and then we can slip this in while ... Dylan: You actually
don't think so?? Herman: That calculated? You think it is? Dylan: I
don't know ... Now abortion is important, I personally don't believe
in it but ..., unless of course somebody needs to have their life
saved. Herman: Well, it's not a matter of believing in abortion ...
Dylan: Eat to much candy, and you gonna get sick! Herman: But people
should have, it seems to me, just the right to make choices about
themselves ... Dylan: (laughs) Well, everybody *does* have the choice
to make about themselves ... Herman: Would you tell me what people
mean, what it really means, when people describes themselves as "born
again", which is something that we hear a lot about from a lot of
people, there are millions of people that say they're born again.
Dylan: Yeah. What they mean by saying that is that they're born again
by the spirit from above. Born once is born with the spirit from
below. Which, when you're born is the spirit that you're born with.
Born again is born with the spirit from above, which is a little bit
different. Herman: Do you know how it happens to people? Is it a
decision that one makes or is it an experience that just comes. Is it
unconscious, is it conscious? Dylan: Well, it happens in all kinds of
ways. It's really not one way that it happens I guess. If you talk to
this person that tell you that it was unconscious and then you talk
to another one that say it was a conscious decision. Some people say
they just heard a voice on a lonesome road, other people say they
were in the middle of a football game, some people were in the men's
room of a Greyhound bus station. You don't have to be in any special
situation, that it might come up. Herman: Let's talk about Shot Of
Love. It's the new album. Dylan: You don't wanna talk about Saved?
(laughs) No one wants to talk about Saved! (laughs more). Herman: I
think somebody once said "Don't look back" ... Dylan: Yeah ...
(laughs) ... Well, Shot Of Love is the new record, we have coming out
... Herman: And it's also a kind of a return, it seems to me, to an
album of songs that cover a whole lot of different subjects, there
are love songs in it, there's a song about Lenny Bruce. As opposed to
Saved, which was really a collection of religious songs, it was one
theme to that album, and Shot Of Love is a return to a more eclectic
album. I am wondering whether that is something that's happening
haphazardly or whether it's something that's, what do you say, "Saved
maybe was too much stuff in one vein or too narrow in scope, and
maybe I ought to be back to doing a whole bunch of songs" or whether
those were just the songs that came out of you? Dylan: Yeah, those
were the songs that just wanted to come out. I never know from one
album to the next what kind of songs I'm gonna be doing. It amazes me
that I even continue to make albums. Herman: What do you mean by
that? Dylan: It is always a miracle of some kind when I make an
album, because ... Working in a studio has always been very difficult
for me. Herman: You approach making records a lot differently than a
lot of people do? Some people spend a year in the studio. Dylan: I
approach record-making in the way that I learned how to to make
records when I started recording, when I recorded for John Hammond.
And we work the same way. Herman: Which is? Dylan: Which is, going
into a studio and making a record. Right then and there. I know the
other way and I know a lot of people do it the other way and it's
successful for them, but I'm not interested in that aspect of
recording. Laying down tracks and then coming back and perfecting
those tracks and then perfecting lyrics, which seem to wanna go with
those tracks. Songs are created in the recording studio. For me, see
I'm a live performer, I have to play songs which gonna relate to the
faces that I'm singing to. I can't do that if I was spending a year
in the studio, working on a track. It's not that important to me. No
record is that important. I mean the world is gonna go on ... who
needs these records? You know what I mean? Herman: A record is
forever. This is forever too. Dylan: It's forever, I guess ... but
... it sure is ... Herman: You're saying that like you never thought
about that before. Dylan: No, I never did think about that before,
but I see in my records ..., I mean I hear records that I made twenty
years ago, and I say 'Oh man, God, did I make that record?' Herman:
Bob, long after you're gone, these records will be here and people
will listen to them and think ... well one thing or another about
this guy who made these records, four hundred years ago. Dylan: Ooh,
poor me! (laughs) But, they *seem* important at the time! You know,
they really do. Yeah, they are important, I'm not saying that records
aren't important, but ... it's also new. I mean, making records is
new. Just the fact that we're doing this interview now, through this
tape recorder, we couldn't have done this ... Herman: There wasn't
any radio stations playing 75 years ago. The point --- as an artist
there must be some ... [Through the entire interview Dylan has been
softly doodling on an acoustic guitar] I just hope that this guitar
... I don't know cause I can't hear it back ... I hope it isn't
louder than we are, which would make it difficult for people to hear
us, I'm afraid. Even though I'm enjoying it immensely ... Dylan:
Well. I play it softly then. Herman: Yeah, that'd be great. It's an
old guitar. It's really beat up. It's been round the world a few
times I guess. Dylan: Well, I've carried it around the world a few
times and I think somebody else carried it around before that too.
Herman: Where were we? Aaah ... oh yeah, what I wanted to say about a
record being forever ... There must be some concern from you as a man
and artist that people will be hearing this thing and coming to
conclusions about Bob Dylan long after you've gone. There must be
something that you'd like to leave in the world for those people who
hear these records, something that they'll get, will give meaning to
your life after your life is over. Dylan: Well, I'm not done yet! And
I'm still doing it and I'm still not knowing *why* I'm doing it. Come
on, I mean there's other things that I would really enjoy doing,
besides playing and ... Herman: Like what? I mean if any man can do
what he wants to, *you* can! Dylan: Like what? Well, I mean, like
become a doctor, you know, yeah I think a surgeon, you know, who can
save somebody's life on the highway. I mean that's a man I'm gonna
look up to, as being somebody with some talent. Herman: ???? Dylan:
(laughs) Dylan: Not to say though, that art is valueless. I think art
can lead you to God. Herman: It's that it's purpose? Dylan: I think
so. I think that's everything's purpose. I mean if it's not doing
that it's leading you the other way. It's certainly not leading you
nowhere. It's bringing you somewhere. It's bringing you that way or
this way. Herman: Well, if it expresses truth and beauty then it's
leading you to God? Dylan: Yeah? (laughs) Herman: Well, wouldn't you
say? Dylan: If it's expressing truth I'd say it's leading you to God
and beauty also. Herman: I've always thought that those were the only
two absolutes that there were. Dylan: Well, beauty can be very *very*
deceiving. It's not always of God. Herman: Would you elaborate a
little bit? Dylan: Well, beauty appeals to our eyes ... Herman: And
to our hearts? Dylan: Our hearts are not good. If your heart's not
good, what good does beauty do, that comes through your eyes, going
down to your heart, that isn't good anyway? Herman: The beauty of a
sunset? Dylan: The beauty of the beast. The beauty of a sunset? Now,
that's a very special kind if beauty. Herman: Well, how about the
beauty of the natural world? Dylan: Like the flowers? Herman: Yes,
and the beasts ... and the rain ... Dylan: All that is beautiful,
That's God-given. I've spent a lot of time dealing with the man made
beauty, so that sometimes the beauty of God's world has evaded me.
Herman: On Shot Of Love is a song called Lenny Bruce, which you
perform just at the piano and I love the song, because I loved Lenny
Bruce, I was a great admirer of him, when he was alive and working,
and of course since his death. It occurred to me it's a long time
since Lenny's gone, I think he went in the summer of 1967, I think it
was. Why, after all these years this song about Lenny Bruce? Dylan:
You know, I have no idea! Herman: Did that song just come to your ...
Dylan: I wrote that song in five minutes! It is true, I rode with him
once in a taxi cab. I found it was a little strange after he died,
that people made such a hero out of him. When he was alive he
couldn't even get a break. And certainly now, comedy is rank, dirty
and vulgar and very unfunny and stupid, wishy-washy and the whole
thing. Herman: Some people thought he was rank and dirty and vulgar
.. Dylan: But he was doing this same sort of thing many years ago and
maybe some people aren't realizing that there was Lenny Bruce, who
did this before and that is what happened to him. So these people can
*do* what they're doing now. I don't know. Herman: Lenny spent a lot
of time bad mouthing the church, too. Well, from the point of view of
organized churches. Is there a very big difference between the
political structure of the various churches, no matter what the
denomination might be and what the spirit is all about. Do you think
that the Catholic Church, traditional Judaism, or any way that their
religions are organized with rites and rituals ... Is that part of
really of what you feel the truth of the spirit of God is all about?
Dylan: Well, that's a complicated question! I'm not an authority on
catholicism. Ritual has really nothing to do with spiritual laws.
However, if you do walk according to the law, all of the law, well,
you'd be a pretty pure person and on a pretty high level. A person
who could no doubt move mountains. if you walk according to the law,
and most people can't walk according to the law, because it's so
difficult, there are so many laws, that govern absolutely every area
of your life. Herman: Maybe it takes more than one lifetime to get
all of that. Is the fact that we come back again and again something
that, I'm talking about reincarnation, let's say the hindhu way of
believing that we get in touch with our own divinity and do walk
according to the law, that it takes more than one life? Think that
there's a possibility that that might be the way? And what's 60, 70,
80 years? Dylan: It's not a whole lot of time, when you think you
need another lifetime! (laughs) You want another life time? How many
do you want? Herman: Well, you have to pay not to go through this
thing twice! (laughs) Dylan: That's it.. That's right! Well I figure
if you can't learn it here, you can't learn it. Herman: Back to Lenny
Bruce, and the fact that it's again yet another Bob Dylan song about,
as you even say in the song, an outlaw. A lot of the stuff, a lot of
the songs over the years, Lenny Bruce, Outlaw Blues, Joey Gallo,
Hurricane Carter, or Absolutely Sweet Marie, "to live outside the
law, you must live honest" (sic). A lot of outlaw imagery and outlaws
in your work. What is it about "man as outlaw" that intrigues you so,
you spend a lot of time on ... Dylan: Well, it's not anything
conscious. I guess it has to do with where I grew up, admiring those
type of heroes, Robin Hood, Jesse James ... You know the person who
always kicked against the oppression and was ... had high moral
standards. I don't know if the people I write about have high moral
standards, I don't know if Robin Hood did, but you always assumed
that they did. Herman: You assume that Joey Gallo did? Dylan: In some
kind of way you have to assume that he did, in some kind of area.
It's like ... I've never written a song about some rapers, you know.
I think what I intend to do is just show the individualism of that
certain type of breed, or certain type of person that must do that.
But there is some type of standard I have for whoever I'm writing
about. I mean, it amazes me that I wrote a song about Joey Gallo.
Herman: But you did! Dylan: Yeah! Herman: A long one too. Dylan: Very
long one. How long was that? About a half hour? Herman: About eleven
minutes. Dylan: Yeah, well I feel that if I didn't do it, who would?
(laughs) But that's an old tradition! I think I picked that up in the
folk tradition, when I was singing nothing but folk songs for years.
There are many songs, a lot of Irish ballads, Roddy McCorley, names
Herman: There must be a hundred songs about Jesse James? Dylan: ...
Jesse James, Cole Younger, the US bandit, Billy The Kid, ... of
course the English ballads had them and the Scottish ballads had them
and the Irish ballads. I used to sing a lot of those songs and that
just kind of carried over with me into the ... whatever the special
brand of music that I play now is ... Herman: People who know you and
work with you told me in the last few days, when I was getting ready
to talk to you, that they've never seen you more relaxed and content
and ... Dylan: (laughs) People always say that! Herman: No, no. And I
have a feeling that you are experiencing that. It's a real nice place
to be now on this European tour. Otherwise I don't think we would be
sitting here talking. You know, if you were preoccupied with other
things or felt out of synch with yourself, I think you'd probably
???? As your friends say. Dylan: Well, I know what I have to do and
I'm just trying to do it, you know. Herman: The ego's got a pretty
big part in being a performer. How do you like to go out there night
after night, do what you do, and hear that applause and ... How much
of a part does that play in ... I mean, do you feel a little bit like
maybe you're hooked on the stage and on the celebrity ??? of it all?
Dylan: No. I don't mind the celebrity part of it. Herman: Could you
be an anonymous person? Dylan: I try to be an anonymous person. As
far as the applause goes, I get just as much .... sometimes it's
applause, sometimes it's booing. You get used to it over years. I
mean, I've been doing it for so long, whatever the applause is, it
doesn't surprise me any more. Herman: But isn't it nicer when it's a
big applause than ...one hand clapping? Dylan: Yeah, it's a lot more
comfortable. Herman: Isn't it nicer when the album is in the top ten
than hanging around at forty-five or something? Dylan: Well, it is
and it isn't. Like Slow Train was a big album. Saved didn't have
those kind of numbers but to me it was just as big an album. Herman:
So it really matters little to you, the acceptance or the rejection
on the part of the record buyers? Dylan: No, it doesn't. I'm
fortunate that I'm in the position to release an album like Saved
with a major record company, so it would be available to people who
would like to buy it. Herman: Was there a time in your life in the
past, when you'd be on the phone: "hey, how did the album do? Did it
go from 8 to 4?" Was there a time when you really got off on that
kind of stuff? Dylan: Well, you always wanna know what's happening
with your record, so the first few weeks, yeah, you'll call up and
find out if it's selling or if it's not selling. Sure. Herman: Has
the music business changed in the 15-20 years or so that you have
been making records? Dylan: Very much so. Herman: ???? winds of pain
shot through you! Dylan: Yeah. Now this last record that we just did
was a comfortable record for me to make, because of ... you know
Chuck? Chuck Plotkin? Well, we worked together on it. OK, up until
then ... Well, he made the record the way I want to make a record. He
understood that. He wanted to make the record in the same way. But
the record business is changed because ... see when I was in ... In
the sixties *everybody* made records the way I did. No matter who you
were, Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Animals, The Byrds ... Herman:
Maybe we should just explain to people that that means all the people
who were on the record were in the studio, in the same room at the
same time, playing at the same time ... Dylan: ... and they made the
record. You were a group, you were somebody, before you went in and
made the record. You were somebody. Herman: Earned the privilege of
making a record? Dylan: Yeah, yeah, you paid enough dues to make a
record. Now, people do not pay no dues no more, They expect to make a
record right away without anybody even hearing them and then you'll
find a producer, they have so many producers now, they didn't have so
many producers back then, the producer was whet they called the A&R;
man. Now you have all these producers who are in themselves stars.
And it's *their* record. I don't think of myself as being told what
to do all the time. Herman: Are you on one side of the gun control
issue or another? Do you think this business of all the guns we have
in America ... I notice here in London, the policemen don't even have
guns on their hips, they don't carry weapons. Dylan: But they have a
much lower crime rate over here too. Well, you can't change the
States in that kind of way. It's too many people. It didn't get off
on the right start ... You know the United States is like gun crazy,
always has been gun crazy. White man used to shoot the Indians with
guns. Guns have been a great part of America's past. So, there's
nothing you can do about it. The gun is just something which America
has got, lives with. I don't think gun control is making any
difference at all. Just make it harder for people who need to be
protected. Herman: And you quoted him in a Playboy interview a few
years ago, ... You said Henry Miller said that the role of an artist
is to inoculate the world with disillusion. Dylan: Yeah. Herman: Is
that what you try to do with your work? Dylan: No. I don't
consciously try to inoculate anybody. I just have to hope there's
some kind of way this music that I've always played is a healing kind
of music. I mean if it isn't I don't wanna do it. Because there's
enough stuff, so-called music, out there, which is sick music. It's
just sick. It's made by sick people and it's played to sick people to
further a whole world of sickness. Now, that's not only true of
music, this is true in film industry, it's true in the magazine
industry. You know it caters to people's sickness. There's a lot of
that. And if I can do something that is telling people or ... hoping
anyway that .. whatever their sickness is, and we're all sick,
whatever it is, you can be healed and well and set straight. Well if
I can't do that, I'd as soon be on a boat, you know I'd as soon be
off hiking through the woods. Herman: There's a song on Shot Of Love,
Every Grain Of Sand, which is about as a healing song as I ever heard
from you. It's a beautiful, beautiful song. Dylan: Oh, yeah, I wrote
that last summer. Herman: Is that what you mean by hopefully healing
music? Dylan: I would hope so. Herman: Well, Bob, is there anything
you would like to tell the vast radio audience out there? Dylan: I
think they know just about anything that I've got to tell them.
Conducted at the White House Hotel in London, England on July 2,
1981. Broadcast by WNEW-FM Radio, New York, July 27 1981. Released on
the promotional album DYLAN LONDON INTERVIEW JULY 1981, Columbia AS
1259, September 1981.
[Bill Flanagan interviewed Bob Dylan in New York in March 1985 for
his book "Written In My Soul." This text is taken directly from that
book] BILL FLANAGAN: You integrate your faith into the songs more
subtly than at the time of "Slow Train Coming." BOB DYLAN: Now I'm
just writing from instinct. I do that most of the time anyway. I just
write from instinct and however it comes out is how it comes out.
Other people can make of it what they choose to. But for me I can't
expound too much on what I'm doing because I really don't have any
idea what I'm doing. But I'll tell you one thing, if you're talking
just on a scriptural type of thing, there's no way I could write
anything that would be scripturally incorrect. I mean, I'm not going
to put forth ideas that aren't scripturally true. I might reverse
them, or make them come out a different way, but I'm not going to say
anything that's just totally *wrong*, that there's not a law for.
BILL FLANAGAN: One of the nice things about "Sweetheart Like You" is
that anyone brought up with the Bible will hear that song one way,
but the song will still work on a different level for someone else.
BOB DYLAN: Oh, I think so, yeah. Because the Bible runs through all
U.S. life, whether people know if or not. It's the founding book. The
founding fathers' book anyway. People can't get away from it. You
can't get away from it wherever you go. Those ideas were true then
and they're true now. They're scriptural, spiritual laws. I guess
people can read into that what they want. But if you're familiar with
those concepts they'll probably find enough of them in my stuff.
Because I always get back to that.
Hugh Downs Interview - October
10, 1986 Bill Youngblood has posted the following recollections on
rec.music.dylan: I have been asked about Dylan's references to his
Christian beliefs in his interview with Hugh Downs on 20/20 several
years ago. I've tracked the segment down. It was played on ABC on
October 10, 1986. The particular segment I referred to was actually
in the narration, over sound bytes of "Shot of Love": "In 1979 Dylan
took the most dramatic and controversial turn of his career, to born
again Christianity, reflected in songs like 'Shot of Love' and
performances with an evangelical fervor. He believes in the
Resurrection, he says, but he also delves intensely into his own
religious heritage, Orthodox Judaism." My remembrance of Dylan saying
he also believes in the coming of the messianic Kingdom must have
come from some other source (alas, I don't remember where). The 20/20
interview, by the way, was quite interesting. It runs about 20
minutes, and includes a short biography as well as several song
samples. Dylan reflects on his music, philosophy, and spirituality.
Asked about his participation in "WeAre the World," he said he did it
because it was for a good cause, but that he really didn't believe in
the song: "I don't believe we can save ourselves." At the end of the
segment, the film crew had been watching Dylan practicing with Tom
Petty and the Heartbreakers. Dylan was asked to do one of his older
songs, any he chose to do. Dylan thought for a moment and decided to
do "Forever Young," joined spontaneously and unrehearsed by Petty and
band. Another unique cut of that classic.
Budapest Interview
- 1991 Dylan: I believe in everything the Bible says. Interviewer: Do
you read the Bible a lot? Dylan: Yes. Interviewer: All the time?
Dylan: Always. Interviewer: What are your favorite books? Dylan:
Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Interviewer: What do you think about the
Apocalypse? Dylan: It will not be by water, but by fire next time.
It's what is written. Interviewer: Which edition of the Bible do you
read? Dylan: The King James's version. Interviewer: That's not really
a Fundamentalist version of the Bible, is it? Dylan: I've never been
Fundamentalist. I've never been born-again. Those are just labels
that people hang on you. They mean about as much as Folk Singer,
Protest Singer, Rock Star. That's to say that they don't mean
anything at all.
This might be a
reference to Nietzsche who was undoubtedly an influence on Dylan's
earlier work> see, for instance, the cover notes to 'Highway 61'
or the text 'Tarantula' (indeed the title of that book coincides with
a chapter in Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathusa'). In the 70s Dylan
even drops Nietzsche's name into the middle of the song 'Joey'.
Dylan's religious experiences of the 70s & 80s point towards a
re-evaluation/ repudiation of this influence. Dylan is saying that
it's no use dreaming any longer 'bout the gates of eden - it's gone.
Fundamental allegiances will have to be reviewed. This is no
tinkering with facades - something quite visceral is about to happen.
Dylan underwent a change of heart and attitude in the late 70s -
however perhaps the assumptions/ presumptions of fundamentalist/
pentecostal/ evangelical Christianity became a little tiring. That is
not to say he recanted of his faith - perhaps he simply did not feel
like putting it out there, in people's faces, all the time, any
longer. Preaching to the converted. On INFIDELS 83 we find an
intelligence attempting to come to terms with incredibly complex
ethical and religious issues. (I realise this is well worn territory
so I'll keep it brief.) On 'Union Sundown' Dylan ponders the fate of
trade unions in the face/ force/ farce of capitalism, in
'Neighbourhood Bully' Dylan defends Zionism post-Lebanon, in 'License
to Kill' he wonders about war and notions of progress, in 'Man of
Peace' he wonders about fake protest. This is not a mind to shy away
from difficult questions! Witness 'I & I' - a phenomenal/
painful/ exhilerating exploration of man's relationship to God,
towards himself and to others (especially a loved one). 'Jokerman'
likewise conjures up so many ghosts . . . but are any answers
forthcoming? Where is the certainty of STC/ where is the fervour of
SAVED? The album that followed INFIDELS was EMPIRE BURLESQUE - the
title bespeaks a certain flippancy and subsequent albums are more and
more difficult to take too seriously> until OH MERCY 89 and the
two folk-re-visited albums of the 90s. Here Dylan returns to the
questions that haunted him in the early 80s (significant also the
BOOTLEG SERIES, released in the early 90s, contains exceptional
unreleased tracks from the INFIDELS sessions). The New Dark Ages
something about the influence of Nietzsche on Dylan . . . Dylan
signals his awareness ofthe post-modern milieu in the pyrotechnic
liner notes to WGW. One theory about Dylan's work is that he lost
contact somewhere in the 70s - got left way behind. The liner notes
of 93 belie this impression> it's not so much that Dylan doesn't
know what is going on - he simply disagrees with it. There's nothing
simplistic or reductionist in the world that Dylan presents in these
songs - the characters & concerns are vivid, alive, poignant/
& ill at ease. The world is going wrong. Dylan's repudiation of
Nietzsche and the Dionysian hero clearly puts him out of step with
these post-modern times - postmodernism being founded, as it is (to
some extent at least) on the explorations of Nietzsche 1844-1900 and
Heidegger 1889-1976. Interestingly, both these German existentialist
thinkers have been linked to the rise of facism earlier in this
century. It is not at all the purpose of this essay to attempt to
belittle philsophers by using the fairly common, albeit cheap and
nasty tactic, of attempting to dismiss someone's argument by
labelling them a 'Nazi'. I raise the issue only in the context of
Dylan's experience and thinking as it is portrayed in the artist's
work. Not only is German philosphy, in the period dominated by
Nietzsche and Heidegger, anti-semitic/ but Nietzsche, in particular,
is also vehement in his denunciation of Christianity as the scourge
of/ the source of weakness in - Western civilisation. It can be
little wonder then that Dylan, as a Jew who converts to Christianity
(the archtypal 'Infidel' - an apostate), should see fit to
re-appraise this allegiance. Or that he has other things on his mind
besides trying to be 'postmodern' (- like salvation and the needs of
mankind - for instance?). It is clear that this essay has wandered
far out into fairly treacherous waters - but it is written simply to
show how disturbing and profound are some of Dylan's lyrics.
Some historical notes on
Christianity and Dylan > Hello. my dad is letting me use his
computer for a few minutes, and i >found this. anyway, i have
heard a lot about bobby being a christian, and >then giving up, or
letting everyone down or something. meanwhile, i was at >the
vineyard, and they were selling copies of slow train coming and other
>stuff, and ny da's friend said something about dylan being burned
by the >vineyard. if anyone knows anything, please let me know.
also, has anyone >here heard of peter case? i'm a big fan. thanks.
Well, this could be long, but I'll keep it short and let you get back
to me if you have further questions. Yes, Bob Dylan clearly had a
born again experience in 1978. He discussed this in an interview with
Robert Hilburn. In Fort Worth, November 24, 1978 he was seen wearing
a large metallic cross on stage (per Bert Cartwright, reference
below, page 57). "Two days later in Houston he altered four lines of
Tangled Up in Blue to sing: -She opened up the Bible And she started
in quoting it to me, Gospel according to Matthew, Verse 3, Chapter
33." (Don't bother with the reference, it's apparently just a random
cite.) He became involved with the Vineyard Fellowship, and
particularly the pastor, Ken Gulliksen. Excellent sources of
information include: Dylan: What Happened? (Paul Williams) --- if you
can get a copy! An article in On The Tracks (last issue minus one)
--- with a good section on the Vineyard relationship. Write me for
more details. Although Dylan's lyrics have always reflected
sensibilities informed by the Judeo-Christian tradition, and a
certain steeping in the Bible (I write this with my copy of "The
Bible in the Lyrics of Bob Dylan" by Bert Cartwright open), the
albums during the intense "convert phase" were: Slow Train Coming
Saved Shot of Love In the words of Bert Cartwright, "In contrast to
composing songs in a folk culture with natural allusions to the
Bible, or more sophisticated songs with literary allusions to the
Bible, here Dylan composes songs in which the Bible is constantly
alluded to as the essence of the believer's faith." -- page 61. Those
who would suggest that Dylan has "completely gone beyond this" appear
to fail simple comprehension tests, and would do well to listen to
Infidels, Under The Red Sky, or Oh Mercy again. --------------- The
first "born-again" shows were at the Warfield in SF in 1979 and the
crowd absolutely loathed Dylan. Since he played 14 nights, word got
around and lots of people dumped their tickets particularly people
who had tix for multiple nights. I saw one of the later nights, and
it was Dylan at his most aggressivley unlistenable.Bob did another
round of shows in 1980, and Bill Graham made him promise that it
wasn't going to be "all-religious". Bob sent Bill a rehearsal tape,
and there was a series of radio ads with Bill Graham swearing to the
people of the Bay Area that he had "personal assurances from Bob
Dylan" that he had been rehearsing lots of different songs, while a
rehearsal tape of Mr. Tambourine Man played in the background (hop to
it, collectors). The first six shows sold out, so Bill added more,
eventually going to 15 (remember the Dead had played 14 nights at the
Warfield the month before). At the first show, Bob did a few
perfunctory oldies and ground out more religious numbers. The crowds
were furious, Bill was furious, and ticket sales for the last 9
nights went into the tank. The BGP organization started bringing in
guest stars to pump up ticket sales--Roger McGuinn, Carlos Santana,
Mike Bloomfield and Jerry Garcia. Dylan grudgingly did one or two
more oldies. Dylan's band, incidentally, was Fred Tackett-gtr (now in
Little Feat), BIll Smith-organ (later in El-Rayo X), Tim
Drummond-bass (Neil Young, james Brown) and Jim Keltner-drums
(everyone). I saw one night (11/12/80) and it was OK but Dylan was
clearly trying to be difficult, while at the same time emulating
Bruce Springsteen by telling long stories while he strummed the
intros to each tune. A wierd period, indeed.
Greetings! I saw the discussion posted on the Dylan newgroup and had
to put in my two cents. I saw the 3rd and 8th nights of Bob's 18 day
marathon. The third night Dylan was badly abused and booed. The three
back-up singers who "tried" to open the show were booed so loudly
they couldn't be heard. The first three songs Dylan did could bearly
be heard for the booing and he was visibly shaken. A young woman in
the third or fourth row on the floor stood between songs ( 4th and
5th as I recall) and shouted " Jesus loves you Bobby and so do I."
From that point on he focused on her. I was seated on the front row
of the balcony and by the time Dylan took a short break half way
through, nearly half the audience had walked out. I don't know how
you feel about spiritual things, but that was one time in my life I
felt the real presence of evil. The line had been drawn and curses
were certainly cast. After the break, Dylan came back with alot
smaller audience, but with fire in his eyes! What a second half!
Thought you'd like to hear from a disciple that nearly saw another
crucifixion!
Dylan's gospel
show at Columbus, OH, 5/20/80 was one of the best I've seen/heard him
do, and was just that, an all-out rockin' bluesy gospel show with
much of the feel and sound of black gospel groups of the '50's. I
think that's the sound he was going for at that point. All the songs
he did were from his "Christian"period. The crowd loved it, and
nobody booed.
I recall the
shows I attended in Pgh in 1980 when Bob was doing his gospel show
and they were very impressive. Most of the people that came for the
old songs were definitely disappointed!!! Some were yelling their
opinions quite vociferously (as the tape I still have will attest)
Perceptive opinions like 'Rock and roll', 'play some classics', and
'where ya at?'. Some were no doubt fueled by not so controlled
substances as was the fashio at the time. Many 'fans' retreated to
the theater bar for some libation, especially during the powerful
opening set by the female gospel singers. As for myself, the
strongest memory I have is the story/song the gospel group told/sang
about the son who went to war and the mother who subsequently got a
message and had to get on the train to get to her son. BUT she had no
money and while on the train, the conductor confronted her about the
lack of a ticket and if you want to hear the rest you'll have to
track down the tapes from that show......worth the price of admission
IMO. As for the curly headed one, he seemed to do his best to
instigate the crowd. His raps disparaged fellow artists who had not
found what he had found. He said 'I knew Jim Morrison and I knew Jimi
Hendrix and I knew Lowell George (who had just died a few days
earlier) and if they knew then what I know now, thy'd still be here.'
So much for modesty. Well, more quotes from the show in the future.
Just for historical purposed ya might say.
Well, I saw Bobby in Oct, 81
at the Spectrum in Philly. I went by myself, the night of the
concert, to the ticket window and asked for the best seat available:
I figured that it wasn't a sell-out. I was correct. I actually got a
good floor seat; it was the nearest to Bob I got for a concert until
the recent Dec shows (I went to all three and really dislike having
to stand for the whole show) with Pat Smith at the new Elect Factory
- well the old Factory had benches to sit on. Well back to October of
81: I sat in a row of seats filled with stag Dylan fans that bought
their tickets that night just like I did and established an instant
raport. Anyway, the most interesting thing about the concert was that
Bob had extra provided MANY extra security guards who walked around
to make sure that NOBODY smoked anything. Pot/tobacco/hash all was
forbidden and really inforced. Mant people were really pissed off.
Anyway, as I remember the concert, it was actually pretty long. The
first part was gospel (well, anyway this part seemed really looong),
well rehearsed. Audience didn't boo but shouted out requests between
songs. Then for around an hour and a half Dylan did a regular
concert/greatest hits show. It was really great. People were on their
feet. Just as the atmosphere reached a fever pitch - Bob pulled the
plug and ended the show. Most people (including myself) was surprised
that it wasn't a completely gospel show and left very satisfied. Bob
put on a great show.
>The show I saw him at in Syracuse was great, energetic. I felt
funny being surrounded by all those born-againers. It was a real
change of crowd for me, but I loved the music. He said something then
about having many changes in his life and this was the final change.
My mind said "sure!" I'm really enjoying all the posts on the booing
(or not booing) during the 1979 - 1981 period. Interesting that: 1)
Clearly the booing has been greatly exaggerated. 2) Ability/inability
to hear the booing doesn't seem to be that tied to whether one is a
Christian or not. (Someone commented to me that they thought the
believers would remember no booing, others would remember only
booing. Certainly not borne out by the pattern of posts on
rec.music.dylan!) 3) How multiple people at the SAME concert can have
such varying memories. (John Henry, obvious citations to "having
ears....." not required.)
An essay, "Is Dylan Still?" by Bill Parr Some thoughts on questions
about Dylan, regarding whether "He is still a Christian": Is he still
a Christian? Lots of folks would argue against. Some would agree that
he is. My sense is that, for many, their answer reveals more about
their preconceptions and biases than about Dylan. My answer, based on
the lyrics of his songs over the last 14 years (since the end of the
1979 - 1981 period), as well as his comments during concerts, and his
song choice, is: Yes. Clearly. Has he "matured" and mellowed a
little, yes. So, why do I believe he's still a Christian? 1) He
consistently makes comments at concerts like, on May 7, 1994 at
Chattanooga (I was there, with my son Aaron), "Everybody has a hero.
Here's a song about my hero...." And then follows up with "In the
Garden." Who else is that song about?! And, if he has "put the 1979 -
1981 period behind him" and is embarrassed about it, for what
conceivable reason would he ever even think of referring to Jesus in
public as "my hero?" If he has reverted to Judaism and forsaken
Christianity, such behavior makes no sense at all. 2) His songs still
reflect the sensibility of 1979 - 1981. For instance: What was it you
wanted? from Oh Mercy --- Please listen to this carefully. The song
appears to be written from a variety of perspectives. (Reminiscent of
Tangled up in Blue) Including: Jesus speaking to Judas. Paul Williams
referred to mainstream rock journalism's reaction and commentary on
this song as evidence that it is the lowest form of literature. I
agree. Nobody seemed to even notice that it had anything to do with
Jesus and Judas. A listen to all of Oh Mercy would only expand on
this impression. Man in the Long Black Coat! The imagery brings the
Bible to mind, and also Blind Willie McTell (and look at Blind Willie
McTell's history!) and the Mississippi Sheiks (look at theirs!).
Infidels --- Listen to Jokerman. Who is Jokerman? Try and find an
answer to this question which makes sense outside of a Christian
mindset. I haven't ever succeeded. Under the Red Sky --- Listen to
the album. The clear sense I have is that of someone who is a
committed Christian, not in the business of "evangelism" in the
narrow sense of the word but instead simply speaking from his (His)
point of view. Under the Red Sky -- the song -- is particularly
telling, but listen to the rest of the album/CD also. Down in the
Groove --- Beats me. This album seems to be largely neutral to me.
The Grateful Dead clearly influenced this one. Who knows? In any
event, not one of his stronger efforts. (But this isn't a set of
album reviews. . .) On October 14, 1995 -- I had the privilege of
seeing (together with my 14 year old son, Aaron) Dylan in Biloxi.
Would that I could have seen him in Thibodeaux the next night! Or
more of the series. There, the clearly most animated and committed
song was "In the Garden." I was directly in front of the stage for
this one. I don't know how anybody could fail to see the passion in
this one --- the vocals, the guitar solos, . . . If he had decided
that 1979 - 1981 was an aberration, or temporary insanity, he could
and presumably would neglect to sing songs from that period. Instead,
I see him, frequently, singing songs from that period. With special
emphasis, and often commenting as noted above re the May 1994
Chattanooga show cited earlier. In summary: Dylan has always been
"elusive." He told us all, in 1979, where he stood. (Give me an email
message if you want more on his statements during this period . . .)
He hasn't formally told us he has changed his mind. (Showed up with
the Lubavitchers, yes. Showed up at a concert or two a little
pickled, yes (apparently)... But, however, . . . ) He continues to
send signals to us that his commitment is real. I agree with Paul
Williams' assessment (See "What Happened," by Paul Williams) that
this commitment is for good, and unlikely to change. 3) His concrete
statements, even in the '90s: You may find of interest the following
snippet from an interview of Dylan in Budapest in 1991: BD: I believe
in everything the Bible says. Q: Do you read the Bible a lot? BD:
Yes. Q: All the time? BD: Always. Q: Which are your favorite books in
the Bible? BD: Leviticus and Deuteronomy Q: What do you think about
the Apocalypse? BD: It will not be by water, but by fire next time.
It's what is written. Q: Which version of the Bible do you read? BD:
The King James Version.
And, during
the Fall 1995 tour, Dylan's comments during a telephone interview
(published, among other places, in Isis, Issue 63, pages 33 - 35):
Question: Is America better or worse than, say, in the days of 'The
Times They Are A-Changin'? Dylan: I see pictures of the '50s, the
'60s, and the '70s and I see there was a difference. But I don't
think the human mind can comprehent the past and the future. They are
both just illusions that can manipulate you into thinking there's
some kind of change. But after you've been around awhile, they both
seem unnatural. It seems like we're going in a straight line, but
then you start seeing things that you haven't seen before. Haven't
you experienced that? It seems we're going around in circles.
Question: When you look ahead now, do you still see a Slow Train
Coming? Dylan: When I look ahead now, it's picked up quite a bit of
speed. In fact, it's going like a freight train now. Dylan has never
been shy about signaling any sharp turns in his thinking. Such as
between 1966 and subsequent work. Such as between October 1978 and
later. Why would he suddenly become shy? I'll close this already
lengthy note with some words from Paul Williams, from his book "Dylan
- What Happened," written shortly after the 1979 Warfield concerts:
"Another possibility, of course, is that Dylan will change again,
will wander from the arms of Christ and go on to the next thing. I
don't really expect this change to happen - I think he's made a
lifetime commitment - but the man has a lot of courage, and if he
felt he had to do it, or if he couldn't find Christ in his heart any
more, I guess he'd move on. In which case he'd probably find himself
having to deal with angry fans more crazed and more dangerous than
any he's confronted before. Embracing Christ is a controversial move
for Dylan to have made; rejecting Him could be catastrophic. And no
doubt Dylan realized this before he made his commitment; he's nothing
if not paranoid; we may assume he knew he was walking through a
one-way door, and that he considered his decision very carefully
indeed. And then he went ahead and did it anyway." (page 121 - 122)
Slow Train Coming I thought I'd
provide some brief commentary on the lyrics to Slow Train. Heady
stuff coming up here, not for the faint of heart! Slow Train first
began to show up in late 1978 as an instrumental warm-up (See Dundas
and Krogsgaard on this!) I'd like to lead off with Jann Wenner's
comments, written in Rolling Stone, 20 September, 1979, p. 95: "Dylan
is the greatest singer of our times. No one is better. No one is even
very close." How true on the entire album on which we find Slow
Train. His singing has seldom been better. < "Sometimes I feel so
low-down and disgusted Can't help but wonder what's happenin' to my
companions, Are they lost or are they found, have they counted the
cost it'll take to bring down All their earthly principles they're
gonna have to abandon? There's a slow, slow train comin' up around
the bend."> The speaker, who I will equate with Dylan (this
equivalence seems to be especially strong for his songs in the 1979 -
1981 time period), is estranged from his (former) companions. Do they
know where they stand, Dylan wonders?? Do they know how much of what
they think, and how they act, must be left behind? I love the way
Dylan says "abandon" here. He's been rejected by his friends. And he
looks at what they will have to do, to join him (and Him). Legend is
that someone got a rabbi from Canada to come and try to talk Dylan
back into Judaism. (Don Williams, Bob Dylan: The Man, The Music, The
Message, page 69)
<"I had a woman down in Alabama,
She was a backwoods girl, but she sure was realistic, She said, "Boy,
without a doubt, have to quit your mess and straighten out, You could
die down here, be just another accident statistic." There's a slow,
slow train comin' up around the bend.">
"A backwoods
girl, but she sure was realistic" -- Dylan never was tamed! And,
listening to this, I can hear him tasting the words as they come out.
One of my joys in listening to Dylan is to see the flavor he applies
to the words. Repentance is needed. "Quit your mess and straighten
out." Again, the train image --- very slow, steady -- coming around
the bend. What is the nature of trains coming around the bend? They
can come slowly, but their arrival is always sudden and unexpected -
"Like a thief in the night." ------------- <"All that foreign oil
controlling American soil, Look around you, it's just bound to make
you embarrassed. Sheiks walkin' around like kings, wearing fancy
jewels and nose rings, Deciding America's future from Amsterdam and
to Paris And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the
bend."> ------------- Interesting. Nationalism here? Why does
Dylan suddenly express distress at the declining influence of the
United States? And note the obvious and inflammatory comments about
Arabs. America's future is decided elsewhere ---- -- but, as we know,
Dylan doesn't believe they really decide America's fate. An Other
does that deciding ---- -Dylan is clear on this point!) ----------------
<"Man's ego is inflated, his laws are outdated, they don't apply
no more, You can't rely no more to be standin' around waitin' In the
home of the brave, Jefferson turnin' over in his grave, Fools
glorifying themselves, trying to manipulate Satan And there's a slow,
slow train comin' up around the bend."> ---------------- Now, we
get to the diagnosis of the problem. Inflated egos. Interesting, the
reference to laws "outdated." Not, as I would have expected,
something implying that man's laws have strayed from God's laws.
Instead, man's laws are OUTDATED. Fascinating! "Trying to manipulate
Satan" --- always a dangerous endeavor, Dylan is warning the
listener. Playing with fire (wonder where that saying came
---------------- <"Big-time negotiators, false healers and woman
haters, Masters of the bluff and masters of the proposition But the
enemy I see wears a cloak of decency, All non-believers and men
stealers talkin' in the name of religion And there's a slow, slow
train comin' up around the bend."> ------------------ Notice
something very typical of New Testament speaking here. Dylan lists,
together, "Big-time negotiators, false healers, and woman haters."
---- I'm reminded of many lists in the New Testament in which Paul,
for instance, writes to a Church, and lists what the Church members
obviously would consider heinous sins, and slips right into the
middle of the list something being done in/by the Church, which Paul
wants to warn them about. "Woman haters." As I reflect on Dylan's
attitude (expressed in words and deeds) toward women, I have to
believe that he saw himself, writing this, as someone who
simultaneously hated and worshipped women. And notice the "big-time
negotiators" reference. Grossman? I don't know. Obviously, that
parting was stressful. Dylan, always distrustful of those in power.
And with good instincts on that score. Notice that Dylan recognizes
that many talk in the name of religion, and do not practice. I'm led
to think of his relative "silence" which bothers so many nowadays.
Perhaps he doesn't want to be used. Note that here, Dylan, very
shortly after his conversion, is already noting the vast amount of
hypocrisy around the planet. Perhaps he's already run into it.
<"People starving and thirsting, grain
elevators are bursting Oh, you know it costs more to store the food
than it do to give it. They say lose your inhibitions, follow your
own ambitions, They talk about a life of brotherly love, show me
someone who knows how to live it. There's a slow, slow train comin'
up around the bend.">
Talk, talk, talk
nobody's living up to the talk. Dylan wants to see just one (Echoes
of Sodom and Gomorrah --- "If I can find just one ....." And still,
the train comes on. Picking up speed.
<"Well, my baby went to Illinois with some bad-talkin' boy she
could destroy A real suicide case, but there was nothin' I could do
to stop it, I don't care about economy, I don't care about astronomy
But it sure do bother me to see my loved ones turning into puppets,
There's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.">
Why "Illinois?" Rhymes with destroy, of
course. Is there a reference here? Where did Sara go when she moved
out? Doesn't care about economy --- recall the references above to
foreign oil controlling American soil. Dylan doesn't care --- he now
tells us. That's not the real problem. The problem is that we're
puppets. Of whom? Perhaps Handy Dandy... What a way to kick of an
album! I understand how Jann Wenner would want to defend this album
(see the quote at the beginning). But how did he come up with the
argument that Dylan had experienced no major changes? I am awestruck
by this song. And hope to hear it live in person (not only on tape)
some day. I'm inclined to close this commentary with the lyrics from
George Jackson (1971): "Sometimes I think this whole world /Is one
big prison-yard /Some of us are prisoners The rest of us are guards."
Dylan travelled a long way between 1971 and 1978.
New York Interview - 1983 That
[born-again period] was all part of my experience. It had to happen.
When I get involved in something, I get totally involved. I don't
just play around on the fringes.
Dylan Interview - New York, 1985 Self-righteousness would be just to
repeat what you know has been written down in the scripture some
place some place else. It's not like you're trying to convince
anybody of anything. You're just saying what the original rule is,
and it's coming through you. But if someone else can get past you
saying it and just hear what the message is, well then it's not
coming from you but through you. And I don't see anything wrong in
that. People didn't listen to that album in a realistic way. First of
all, "Shot of Love" was one of the last songs Bumps Blackwell
produced, and even though he only produced one song I gotta say that
of all the producers I ever used, he was the best, the most
knowledgeable and he had the best instincts ... I would have liked
him to do the whole thing but things got screwed up and he wasn't
so-called "contemporary" ... what came out was something close to
what would have come out if he was really there. The record had
something that could have been made in the Forties or maybe the
Fifties ... there was a cross element of songs on it ... the critics
... all they talked about was Jesus this and Jesus that, like it was
some kind of Methodist record.
Notes on Larry Norman and Bob Dylan by Graeme Beaton Great idea to
explore further the link between Dylan and Christianity. I'd like to
offer a few comments re. the connection between Larry Norman and Bob
Dylan. My Introduction to Bob Dylan's poetry began with a Larry
Norman record in 1978 - although I did not know that at the time -
ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET. (Which was actually recorded in 1972.) A
profoundly religious album/ also questioning/ also provoking -
protesting not just against 'the establishment' but also against 'the
cool'. Enigmatic. Compare: 'Righteous Rocker' to 'Gotta Serve
Somebody' SLOW TRAIN COMING '79. Each song lists a vacuum of
occupations and pre-occupations - then states: <'but without love
you aint nothing - without love' 'but u gonna havta serve somebody it
may be the Devil or it may be the Lord but u gonna havta serve
somebody'.> Is it possible that, in the days of repentance, Dylan
was listening closely to Larry Norman and decided that he wanted to
put out songs that were even stranger? With 'Gotta Serve Somebody'
and STC he succeeds. Now compare the disturbing gentleness of
Norman's 'I Wish We'd All Been Ready' with the strident attack 'Are
You Ready', Dylan's song from the 1980 SAVED. SAVED is, I think, a
vastly under-estimated album - it's just u gotta go searching for the
difference. It is too easily dismissed as 'fundamentalist' when there
is so much more going on. This is made more clear when one listens to
other songs of about the same time (not released until the BOOTLEG
series) - 'Ye Shall be Changed', the demo of 'Every Grain of Sand'
and 'You Changed my Life'. >From the haunting 'broken mirror of
innocence' - to the contempt for things of this world: 'in the world
you had made they had made you an outcast' - and then to the profound
sense of dissatisfaction and alienation: 'had enough of hatred . . .
can't find nothing sacred' - it clear that there is a deeply personal
inner struggle going on. But there are songs that do not succeed so
well and perhaps 'Are you Ready' is one of them. If Larry Norman
influenced Dylan's post-conversion blues then it is equally clear
that Norman took many of his cues from Dylan's 60's work. <'I was
born and raised an orphan in a land that once was free in a land that
poured its love out on the moon And I grew up in the shadow of your
silos filled with grain but u never helped to fill my empty spoon'
> - these lines from 'The Great American Novel' sung with just
that plaintive folk cry/ acoustic guitar intro that anyone familiar
with Dylan's early work would recognise. And these themes surface
again in Dylan's own work: <'People starving and thirsting /Grain
elevators are bursting/U know it cost more to store the food than it
do to give it?' 'Slow Train' STC '79.> <'We need a solution
we need salvation let's send some people to the moon and gather
information - they brought back a big bag of rocks only cost thirteen
billion - must be nice rocks'.> from Norman's song 'Reader's
Digest'. <'for man has invented his doom first step was touching
the moon'>Dylan's 'License to Kill' off INFIDELS '83. The
interleaving/ overlocking of influences continues: the riff from
'Reader's Digest' is quite close to the classic 'Subterranean
Homesick Blues'. It's OK- after all - Dylan borrowed so many of his
tunes from earlier folk songs. It may be just co-incidence - but
another artist that fathomed these waters is Bruce Cockburn, the
Canadian singer-songwriter. - of particular interest is his 1980
album HUMANS. At the same time that Dylan was unleashing his slow
train Cockburn was penning the lyrics of the sublime 'The Rose above
the Sky'. Now contrast the last verse of the Cockburn song 'More Not
More' with the last verse of the later Dylan song 'Don't fall apart
on me tonight': <'there must be more . . . more . . . more growth
more truth more chains more loose not more pain not more walls not
more living human voodoo dolls' > off HUMANS '80. <'It's time
for u & me to stop this waste girl /no more booby traps and
bombs/ no more decadence and charms. No more affection that's
misplaced girl - no more mudcake creatures lying in your arms'
>off INFIDELS '83. Intriguing also, I find, the co-relation
between the titles HUMANS with the title ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET -
indicative of a profound disillusionment with and alienation from
existence here in the world. Outsiders. Infidels. Perhaps the best
description of this particular/ peculiar oeuvre comes from the liner
notes to ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET 'his work remained very
controversial too rock and roll for the Christians and too Christian
for the rock and rollers'. Dylan's work of this period shows a deeply
pained/ almost fragmented intelligence trying to reconcile faith with
reasons - the result is a disturbing pessimism and yet the honesty
with which he is prepared to express himself is, in itself, an
inspiration. There is an persistence and perseverance in the face of
the pestilence. Something to do with the nuance and menace of his
delivery - the way in which he punches out certain lines - it doesn't
take a much to recognise that on INFIDELS he is really angry (just
look at the cover) or on STC to realise his conviction. This
discourse has meandered its own discursive way and I fear that there
are so many other paths to explore . . . so I'll quit here. Larry
Norman ONLY VISITING THIS PLANET 1972 Street Level Productions Bruce
Cockburn HUMANS 1980 East Side Digital Bob Dylan SLOW TRAIN COMING
1979 CBS Bob Dylan SAVED 1980 CBS Bob Dylan INFIDELS 1983 CBS Bob
Dylan THE BOOTLEG SERIES 1991
Slow Train Coming Home Page
I thought you'd like the following, from a midnight interview of
Dylan, at a Fort Lauderdale hotel this last year: Question: When you
look ahead now, do you still see a Slow Train Coming? Dylan: When I
look ahead now, it's picked up quite a bit of speed. In fact, it's
going like a freight train now.
For music, I would say that Bob Dylan's "Slow Train Coming" is the
best Christian album ever recorded. I've certainly never written
anything that says as much and I'd be most impressed if he ever
surpasses it himself. I wish every Christian who likes modern Gospel
music would buy a copy of "Slow Train". Then they'd have an idea of
what Christian music is capable to communicating. Larry Norman
Slow Train Coming Sessions I indicate here the dates and songs
recorded, with an attempt to get the musicians recording on that date
correct. I'd appreciate any corrections or additional information
anyone has to contribute. Late April 1979 (exact date unknown) When
He Returns Producers: Jerry Wexler and Barry Beckett Musicians: Bob
Dylan (guitar and vocals) Barry Beckett (keyboards and percussion)
April 30, 1979, Muscle Shoals Sound Studio, Sheffield, Alabama
Troubled in mind Producers: Jerry Wexler and Barry Beckett Musicians:
Bob Dylan (guitar and vocals) Barry Beckett (keyboards and
instruments) Mark Knopfler (guitar) Tim Drummond (bass) Pick Withers
(drums) Mickey Buckins (percussion) Carolyn Dennis (backing vocals)
Helena Springs (backing vocals) Regina Havis (backing vocals) May 1
and 2, 1979, Muscle Shoals Sound Studio, Sheffield, Alabama Ye Shall
Be Changed Gonna Change My Way of Thinking Precious Angel When You
Gonna Wake Up No Man Righteous, No Not One Producers: Jerry Wexler
and Barry Beckett Musicians: Bob Dylan (guitar and vocals) Barry
Beckett (keyboards and instruments) Mark Knopfler (guitar) Tim
Drummond (bass) Pick Withers (drums) Mickey Buckins (percussion)
Carolyn Dennis (backing vocals) Helena Springs (backing vocals)
Regina Havis (backing vocals) Muscle Shoals Horns (horns) May 3,
1979, Muscle Shoals Sound Studio, Sheffield, Alabama I Believe in You
Slow Train Producers: Jerry Wexler and Barry Beckett Musicians: Bob
Dylan (guitar and vocals) Barry Beckett (keyboards and instruments)
Mark Knopfler (guitar) Tim Drummond (bass) Pick Withers (drums)
Mickey Buckins (percussion) Carolyn Dennis (backing vocals) Helena
Springs (backing vocals) Regina Havis (backing vocals) Muscle Shoals
Horns (horns) May 4, 1979, Muscle Shoals Sound Studio, Sheffield,
Alabama Gotta Serve Somebody Do Right to Me, Baby When He Returns Man
Gave Names to All the Animals Producers: Jerry Wexler and Barry
Beckett Musicians: Bob Dylan (guitar and vocals) Barry Beckett
(keyboards and instruments) Mark Knopfler (guitar) Tim Drummond
(bass) Pick Withers (drums) Mickey Buckins (percussion) Carolyn
Dennis (backing vocals) Helena Springs (backing vocals) Regina Havis
(backing vocals) Muscle Shoals Horns (horns)
